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Inside the Libertarian Mind: ‘Israel is the Aggressor Because it Invaded Palestine’

November 21, 2012

The Libertarians may be for free market and limited government, but when it comes to foreign policy and self-defense war, they are as myopic, immoral and evil as the liberals and leftists. The Libertarians claim to be the champions of liberty and freedom without properly understanding that such ideals must be defended not merely against political, statist intrusion, but also against foreign threat and invasion.

The problem with the Libertarians is that they tend to think purely in terms of ‘economics’. Most Libertarians (notice the capital ‘L’: they’re members of the Libertarian Party) believe that statism can only be solved by economic education. They believe that the statists advocate and promote socialistic programs and measures because of their ignorance of economics. In the minds of the Libertarians who obviously pay lip-service to liberty and capitalism, the root cause of world’s crisis lies mainly on the people’s lack of economic education and the only way to solve this problem is to teach the people proper economic knowledge. I strongly do not agree with this worldview. People embrace destructive socialistic economic measures simply because they embrace collectivism. In some cases, people commit suicide bombing and acts of terrorism not because of poverty and economic ills, but mainly because they embrace a totalitarian religious ideology.

I’ve met a number of dogmatic Libertarians who told me that all wars were motivated by economic gains or factors. They naively believe that Nazi Germany, for example, was engaged in a global war because of their economic condition. A few Filipino Libertarians told me the Islamic secessionist rebels in Mindanao have been waging a war of attrition against the Philippine government and carrying out a series of terrorist activities against innocent civilians because they’re victims of ‘massive land-grabbing’ and economic crimes by the kafirs or infidels. These same Libertarian ideologues also told me Palestinians in the Middle East have resorted to terrorism and military conflict because they’re victims of ‘land-grabbing’ by the people of Israel. Bad economic condition and mindset, they claim, turn men into monsters.

I say, rubbish!

I was engaged in a heated Facebook debate with a Filipino Libertarian living in the United States regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict. This Libertarian named Warlito Nobleza Vicente, owner and webmaster of Antipinoy.com, posted his own assessment of the current issue: “Israel vs palestine.. corporate welfare state versus social welfare state.. statism leads to war…”

I made the following comment:

“While I agree that statism leads to war, it is always the most statist state that starts war. There is no moral equivalence here. There is the good/moral side and the bad side here. The nation that adheres to peace has all the right to self-defense. Israel is the rightful owner of their territory and it should not have given up Gaza and West Bank. Giving up Gaza is one BIG, FATAL mistake Israel did in the past. It simply shows you cannot appease an enemy that’s determined to kill you.

“How would you deal with an enemy state whose Charter clearly states: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews)”?”

Here’s the actual debate/discussion:

Warlito: “Hamas social welfare state vs Israeli corporate welfare state.. only the military industrial complex benefits .. weapons sold on both sides come from same companies.”

Vincenton Post: “Israel a corporatist state? Well, America and the Philippines are also corporatist states. Does that mean Israel is no longer entitled to any right to self-defense? Does that mean that a ‘corporatist state’ must not defend itself or retaliate against an invading, hostile enemy that is an absolute totalitarian religious state? Does that mean that only a so-called Libertarian state is entitled to peace? But even so-called Libertarian states can be subject of invasion by fascist expansionist, imperialist states! Man’s history books is full of stories of invasion. That even peaceful states or societies that didn’t want to expand through invasion were victims of invasion.”

Warlito: “There’s more to this picture than meets the eye. Continuous jewish expansion into the occupied Palestinian territories .. the building of new settlements via demolition of existing Palestinian homesteadeds doesn’t justify self-defense too? War mongering benefits nobody except the military industrial complex.”

Observe that Warlito’s statement is laced with conspiracy theory and Islamic-leftist propaganda rhetoric: that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territories and that it’s motivated by what he calls ‘military industrial complex’. This rhetoric is so popular among both Libertarians and liberals.

Vincenton Post: “Am I right to assume that that the Libertariants somehow think, or believe, that since Israel is guilty of ‘statism’ it must forfeit its right to self-defense? That’s since it is a ‘corporate state’, it is inherent guilty or even guiltier that all its surrounding enemies. ‘Continuous jewish expansion into the occupied Palestinian territories’… Where did you get that info? That’s a lie.

Warlito: Not a lie.. it’s a fact.”

Vincenton Post: “Let’s get the facts correct. What made you say that Palestinian territories are “occupied” territories? What expansion are you talking about?”

Warlito: “By invading palestine… Israel helps the arab tyrants and despots take the heat off of the arab people’s suffering. Military industrial complex laughing all the way to the bank at civilian expense on both sides.”

Vincenton Post: “Please read proper history books. First, there was no Palestinian state. Invading Palestine? Gaza was formerly occupied by Egypt while West Bank was formerly occupied by Jordan. Even Jordan and Egypt refused to admit the so-called Palestinian refugees. Stop talking nonsense about your military industrial complex as if Israel begged to be bombed by the Palestinian savages.”

Warlito: “Expanding jewish settlements in occupied territories no different from being bombed. Homestead palestinian residences demolished to give way to new Jewish settlements just as savage.”

Note: Observe the phrase “expanding jewish settlements in occupied territories.” This is a politically loaded rhetoric and propaganda that is also very popular among both liberals and Libertarians.

Vincenton Post: “That’s a LIE. It helps if you try to know the facts first. The so-called settlements being referred to by the leftists and Libertarians like you is the Gaza Strip, which was given up by Israel in 2005. It was Israel who left the area. Plus, Gaza was not a Palestinian territory, historically. It was previously OCCUPIED by Egypt. How is that “expanding jewish settlements” now? Get the facts correct, please. And after the Jews left Gaza in 2005, the PLO thanked the Jews by bombing them with their Iran-made rockets.”

Warlito: “How was the state of Israel created? By evicting pre-existing Palestinian residences.”

Vincenton Post: “A very good question. It was created the very same way the PLO was created. ‘By evicting pre-existing Palestinian residences.’ LOL! You’re reading too much leftist and Islamic propaganda. Are you saying the Ottoman Turks were Palestinians? Read history books and you’ll find out even the Ottoman empire denied the so-called Palestinians and Syrians their rights to land. The Palestinian State was created by the British, FYI.”

Warlito: “Just because the Ottoman turks denied statehood does nor negate the fact that the area was already occupied by Palestinians.”

Vincenton Post: “You’re missing the fact that there was no preexisting Palestinian State. That’s a fact. Unless you want to rewrite ME history.”

Then someone asked how the Palestinian State gained statehood.

I said that historically, everything started after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Being the victor the British Empire had the right to partition the fallen Islamic empire into independent states. As for the legality of the Palestinian State, I think it’s laid down in the British Mandate for Palestine. Thus, if the State of Israel is being accused as the “Illegal Occupier”, then it follows that all of the existing states today that ‘occupy’ the formerly Ottoman territories are also ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS.

It always irritates me when some people accuse Israel of “illegally occupying” Gaza or whatever territory. That territory should be properly termed “DISPUTED” territory. Gaza was formerly occupied by Egypt, while West Bank was formerly occupied by Jordan. However, Israel acquired “legal title” to these ‘disputed’ territories after winning the 6-day war against Jordan and Egypt in 1967.

Former State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who chaired the International Court of Justice in the Hague, ruled in 1970 regarding Israel’s case: “Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.”

The fact of the matter is, Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza Strip to the Palestinians even if they didn’t have to. In fact, Israel should not have surrendered that territory. It was a BIG mistake on the part of the Jews.

Warlito: “How can Palestinians focus on nation building when Israeli settlements keep expanding into occupied territories? Doing so only adds fuel to a smoldering fire. And Israel plays into a script written by hawks. Nobody wins. As far as am concerned both sides can raise issues of self defense. What am not in favor of is US taxpayers subsidizing Israel or Palestine.”

Vincenton Post: “Know how the UNRWA and the Arab World try to perpetuate the status of the Arab refugees. Israel absorbed thousands of Arab refugees victimized by the Arab nations. Did Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other Arab countries ever try to help their own brothers and sisters? NO! They instead drove them away. Your LIES and PROPAGANDA (although I think you actually don’t know the facts) is an INSULT to the refugees and innocent people helped by Israel and who are now living peacefully and as human beings in Israel…”

[I posted the following video]

On UNRWA: how it perpetuates the miserable status of the Arab refugees. It appears that UNRWA and the Arab World are trying to turn the children of the Arab refugees into future monsters and Islamic terrorists…

In case you’re going to tell me Israel is an apartheid state…

Vincenton Post: “‘And Israel plays into a script written by hawks.’ WOW! I don’t know what to say. So, every time Israel is bombed by Hamas rockets, Israel is simply playing a role according to a “script written by hawks”. But granting arguendo that your BLOOD-LIBEL against Israel is correct, is it not entitled to protect the lives of its people?”

‘keep expanding into occupied territories?’

I’ve given you ALL THE FACTS. You simply try to ignore them. You keep on repeating that LIE. How did the Israelis try to expand their territories? Are you saying Gaza and West Bank were formerly PLO territories? What territories?

Give me FACTS!

Warlito: “Were gaza and west bank jewish settlements before? No they were not. Who were the people.in actual possession of these territories before the Israeli occupation? Jews? No they were not. Was there a modern state called palestine during that time. None because the un didn’t create one. Should the un have created one at the same time it created Israel. Yes. The Israeli Palestinian question is bigger than territorial conflict. What lies in its core is blowback. Yes the territories were occupied by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Does occupation by Israel make it any less wrong. It’s one thing to be an occupation force. It’s another thing to be in actual possession of the land that occupation forces claim as their own. Foreign intervention always winds up with blowback no matter the intentions.”

Vincenton Post: “You seem to dishonestly forget there were Jewish people there even during the 500-year rule of the Ottoman empire.  First, there was no Palestinian State before 1947 and 1917. Second, Israel, Jordan, Palestine and others were created by the WW1 victors out of the ruins of the Ottoman empire. Third, you’re WRONG in all respects. So, stop saying Israel is merely “occupying” a state. If that’s the case, then Jordan, Palestine and others are also “occupiers”. Also, the so-called Arab refugees were victims of the Arabs themselves. Some of them came from Darfur. Some hundreds of thousands were ABSORBED by Israel. What did the Arab nations do? They drove those refugees away. What did the UNRWA do? It simply tries to perpetuate the refugee status of those Arab refugees. Did you know that those refugees are NOT allowed to acquire citizenship? Again, get the facts correct.”

‘Yes the territories were occupied by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Does occupation by Israel make it any less wrong.’

“First, stop blaming Israel. It’s NOT Israel’s fault. It’s the Arab Nation’s fault. In 1947, Jordan and Egypt tried to invade Israel. That war created refugees. Like I said, some of them were welcomed by Israel, while the Arab world rejected them, denying them rights.

“Again, WHAT OCCUPATION BY ISRAEL? Tell me exactly.”

‘Foreign intervention always winds up with blowback no matter the intentions.’

“What the HECK IS WRONG WITH YOU? That foreign intervention is NOT Israel’s fault!

“Remember that it’s already part of history. People are trying to deal with the consequences of what had transpired in the past. People today had nothing to do with what happened in 1917. It’s not the fault of the Israelis that the Ottoman empire joined other nations to wage the first world war and lost.”

Warlito then proceeded to give me what he called ‘facts’. He copy-pasted passages from an online article written by an unknown Internet scribbler/propagandist. The online article is about the origin of Palestine: ‘Starting Point- When it was Palestine’.

My reply: “ARE YOU SAYING THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE DID NOT EXIST? Are you saying Egypt, Jordan and other countries in that area were all previously owned by the Palestinians? Your source simply tries to tell people the period ranging from 1500 – 1917 did not exist. I can tell you the Jews also lived there for more than 2,000 years as evidenced by history and archeological artifacts.”

Warlito replied by copy-pasting an excerpt of an online article titled ‘The Balfour Declaration and its Consequences’ by an Arab writer named Avi Shlaim.

My reply: “According to your source, since 7th century, all empires and countries that occupied NOT only today’s Palestine and Israel, but most of the Arab world, were all ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS. Ottoman empire was an illegal occupier. Also, according to your info, all nation in the ME today are ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS. SO, WHY SINGLE OUT ISRAEL? Jordan and Palestine were also created by the British.”

Again, Warlito copy-pasted another online article titled ‘The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict’ from a pro-Palestine and anti-Israel website.

Warlito also gave Mahatma Ghandi’s opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict by quoting passages from this site. Plus passages from this site as well as this Wikipedia article about the history of Palestine.

The main problem with Warlito’s copy-pasta is that they’re all opinions and biased propaganda. They’re not facts! That’s why I said: “COPY-PASTA without proper understanding will never work…” Warlito retorted by saying “your sense of history starts with 1917… my copy pasta is earlier than 1917… deal with it”.

Hilarious!

I reminded him that all his  sources claim the Jews NEVER EXISTED in the past. That they’re all Islamic/liberal propaganda.

I also reminded him that the only issue is as follows: Was there a pre-existing STATE OF PALESTINE before 1947 and 1917? Because before 1917, those areas were part of the Ottoman Empire.

I proceeded to give Warlito a very short lecture on the history of the world.

I posted the following comment:

Well, that’s how the world works. One day you’d understand that this planet existed for billions of years, and countless of societies, tribes, empires and nations perished and were replaced by new ones. That process continued for thousands of years.

There were Jewish lands over 2000 years ago. There was also the Sumerian empire, which was replaced by new empires. The Egyptian empire also perished after the death of Cleopatra. The empire of Alexander the Great that conquered nearly half of the world also perished with him.

Over 500 years ago, the Ottoman empire ruled most of the Middle East region. That’s part of history, although we know there was a Jewish land before it.

As history shows, the Ottoman empire ended in 1917. It is WRONG and IDIOTIC to directly connect the very distant past (over 2000 years) with what’s happening today.

Unfortunately, your failed arguments is almost the same as your pro-Mindanao argument.

Let’s deal only with the known and recent facts:

FACT 1: There was no pre-existing entity known as Palestinian State.

FACT 2: All the lands and territories in question were all part of the Ottoman empire that perished in 1917. The ottoman empire ruled and became a world order since 1453. That was the WORLD ORDER during that era. If you deny that, there must be something wrong with your head.

FACT 3: Some ME countries that comprise the defunct Ottoman territory today include Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Libya, Tunisia, Malta, Egypt, among many others.

Based on your argument, Warlito Nobleza Vicente, all of these countries are occupiers.

Plus, there is a BIG difference between the so-called Palestinian people and Palestinian State.

Let me try to inform you that there were also Jewish people who lived in those territories in question for hundreds of years.

Here’s the difference:

A STATE may DIE or PERISH through invasion. A STATE may be replaced by another STATE or ANNEXED by an INVADING STATE. The people don’t. They may stay or migrate.

Warlito’s final reply is as follows:

The states in the territories mentioned are indigenous and already were in possession of territory.

In contrast the Palestinians were systematically dispossessed and stripped of political rights.

For short Israel is facing a backlash due to its landgrab. The Jewish people in said territories lived peacefully with the arabs.. until the Zionists came and the rest is history

My final reply:

You should understand that the Jews also had their Jewish land over 2000 years ago and that they were expelled from their native land. It’s as if you’re trying to tell me the Jews did not exist at all. That they never had a Jewish land in the past. So where did they come from then? If that’s what you’re trying to imply, then you need to re-write history just like what the Islamists have been trying to do for years.

Warlito: ‘In contrast the Palestinians were systematically dispossessed and stripped of political rights.’

So were the Jews! My goodness! There’s something wrong with you, Warlito. Your dishonesty is actually disturbing. I don’t think I need to elaborate how the Jews were dispossessed, oppressed and massacred in the past, repeatedly by the Muslims.

“For short Israel is facing a backlash due to its landgrab.”

This is the most egregious, most DISHONEST statement you’ve ever made. If that’s your logic, then EVERYBODY IS A LAND-GRABBER. The Ottoman empire was a land-grabber. So are the nations that currently occupy the Ottoman territories. Your hatred of the Jews is… Wow!

Warlito: ‘The Jewish people in said territories lived peacefully with the arabs.. until the Zionists came and the rest is history.’

Are you saying they did not have their own ancestral land? Are YOU A MUSLIM?

Yes, some of them live with the Arab under the condition that they’d accept a DHIMMI status and pay additional taxes.

Warlito: ‘In contrast the Palestinians were systematically dispossessed and stripped of political rights.’

The so-called Palestinians were first dispossessed by their fellow Muslims.

As to Warlito’s dishonest, historically incorrect claim that “the Jewish people in said territories lived peacefully with the arabs”, I told him that yes, they allegedly lived peacefully provided they accepted a ‘dhimmi’ status (translation: a status of the people of the book and minorities- Jews and kafirs- under islamic rule) and paid additional dhimmi taxes.

Former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali eloquently explained this fallacy of “Jews living peacefully with Arabs” to an ill-informed American in the following video clip:

Here’s a transcript:

Republican Rep. Darrell Issa: “If you go to the Palestinian territory, the one thing you’ll see is for over thousand years, Christians and Muslims have lived side by side… Their churches and their mosques are next to each other. So, we can talk about radical Islam, but you see no evidence of it there. You go to Ethiopia where you have some of the oldest Christians in the world and Muslims… But there is no question that religious tolerance of the two living side by side has not been about extremism, convert or you’ll die.”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: “I just think I we don’t agree with that.”

Darrell Issa: “Unfortunately thousand year old churches don’t lie.”

Hirsi Ali: “Let me tell you something. It was always fine as long as Christians and Jews will accept inferior positions as dhimmis, and as a minority and they will pay their extra taxes and so on. They could have their synagogues, they could have their churches, all fine. But now that Israel- Jews- have come come, you know, [established] an independent state and they control their own strip of land, then that’s no longer acceptable. And I think if we talk in terms of history, I think it would be fair to tell things as they are. Yes, there was no holocaust in the Middle East as there was in Germany, but there was the suppression of the dhimmis, Christians and Jews and minorities in the Middle East. Let’s tell the story as it is…”

Darrell Issa: [silence]

Now, the main gist of Warlito’s anti-Israel argument is that the Jews are guiltier or the aggressor because they invaded Palestine. That the Israelis are guilty of what he calls ‘land-grabbing’. Obviously, Warlito intentionally and dishonestly refused to answer the question, Was there a pre-existing STATE OF PALESTINE before 1947 and 1917?

Warlito’s only answer is: “History did not begin in 1917…”

What’s the implication of that statement?

First, it implies that Israel is not the only state guilty of land-grabbing, but other states/nations as well, such as Egypt and Jordan that occupied Gaza and West Bank, respectively, before 1967, and the Ottoman empire that ruled the entire Middle Eastern region for about 500 years.

Second, it implies that there was Palestinian State over 500 years or even 2000 years ago, and this makes Palestine the rightful owner of the disputed territory, including perhaps the current Israel territory, Jordan, Egypt and Syria.

However, the question is: Was there really a Palestinian State?

Well, according to a prominent ‘Palestinian’ leader named Awni Abd al-Hadi in his testimony to the Peel Commission, “There is no such country [as Palestine]…. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented…. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”

Al-Hadi is, of course, partly right. What he said actually shows that even the ancient and 20th century Arabs denied the existence of the so-called Palestinian people. But of course history tells us that the word ‘Palestine’ is not even Arabic. The term “Philistines” was coined by the Romans around 135 CE from the name of a seagoing Aegean people who occupied on the coast of Canaan in antiquity.

Here’s a good analogy: It’s just like the Spaniards calling early browned-skinned settlers in the Philippines “Indios”.

The truth is: Palestine was and is solely a geographic name.

From this source:

Historically, Before the Arabs Fabricated the Palestinian People as an Exclusively Arab Phenomenon, No Such Group Existed

Countless official British Mandate-vintage documents speak of ‘the Jews’ and ‘the Arabs’ of Palestine — not ‘Jews and Palestinians.’

Ironically, before local Jews began calling themselves Israelis in 1948 (the name ‘Israel’ was chosen for the newly-established Jewish state), the term ‘Palestine’ applied almost exclusively to Jews and the institutions founded by new Jewish immigrants in the first half of the 20th century, before independence. Some examples include:

  • The Jerusalem Post, founded in 1932, was called the Palestine Post until 1948.
  • Bank Leumi L’Israel was called the “Anglo-Palestine Bank, a Jewish Company.”
  • The Jewish Agency — an arm of the Zionist movement engaged in Jewish settlement since 1929 — was called the Jewish Agency for Palestine.
  • The house organ of American Zionism in the 1930s was called New Palestine.
  • Today’s Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, founded in 1936 by German Jewish refugees who fled Nazi Germany, was called the “Palestine Symphony Orchestra, composed of some 70 Palestinian Jews.”
  • The United Jewish Appeal (UJA) was established in 1939 as a merger of the United Palestine Appeal and the fundraising arm of the Joint Distribution Committee.

Thus, if Warlito claims that Israel should abandon their ancestral land and surrender the same to the so-called Palestinians who allegedly occupied the land in question over 1000 or even 2000 years ago, then such a stupid, baloney Libertarian mindset should also apply against all nations in the world today.

The Americans should also abandon the United States and give the entire territory to the native Indians.

Some parts of Mexico should be given back by force to the Aztecs and Inca people.

The Philippines should be partitioned into tiny territories and given back to its native settlers.

Yet one interesting question is: What is the point or time of reference to consider? This is because so many peoples and tribes and empires settled a given territory for a period of say, 2000 years.

For example,  should the entire Middle Eastern region be given back to the Ottoman empire or its surviving royal members? Or: should it be given to the people who settled in the territory prior to the invasion of the Islamic empire? What is the point of reference?

Here’s my message to liberals and Libertarians: Get your facts correct. Fallacious, historically incorrect arguments can be fatal, immoral and evil. Unless you want to see the entire Israel population MASSACRED by the Palestinians and the Arab world.

In regard to the issue of whether people embrace statism or collectivism because they have absorbed bad economics, here’s what philosopher Ayn Rand said in her letter to the founder of the Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) Leonard Read:

The root of the whole modern disaster is philosophical and moral. People are not embracing collectivism because they have accepted bad economics. They are accepting bad economics because they have embraced collectivism. You cannot reverse cause and effect. And you cannot destroy the cause by fighting the effect. That is as futile as trying to eliminate the symptoms of a disease without attacking its germs.

That is, some people willingly commit terrorism and call for the death of the Jews and kafirs not because they have embraced bad economics, but because they have accepted an evil, totalitarian religious ideology.

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