A Debate Challenge to a Stupid College-Bred Troll
The Roots of America’s Great Depression: Big Government and the Federal Reserve System
This is my nth time to challenge stupid people to a debate. This time, however, I’m challenging a know-it-all hippie who clearly
doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The topic? The real cause of the Great Depression and the alleged failure of free market capitalism.
I was engaged in a series of debates before. For instance, I was challenged by a Libertarian Catholic to a debate on Facebook, and the topic was the virtue or evil of altruism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Here’s the result of the challenge. I was also engaged in a purely philosophical and ‘scientific ‘ debate with a Filipino Freethinker who believed that scientific ‘truths’ are temporal and relative, that Rene Descartes’ ‘Cogito Ergo Sum’ is absolute, etc. The results of the debate are here and here. Also, here’s the result of my latest online encounter with a commenter codenamed Freethinker2008 who just doesn’t know how to argue properly.
This time, a troll, or a nameless commenter, claimed that the Great Depression wasn’t caused by Big Government or the Federal Reserve, but by the failure of the free market system. Since I believe that trolls have the guts to say whatever they want online, I challenged this troll, who is apparently from UP or a certain state-funded college or university, to reveal his name and identity and deal with me in an online debate.
Here’s what I said:
Here’s what this hippyish troll said: “The cause of the Great Depression was not caused by a big government. (You make me laugh. It’s the other way around) Due to the failure of the government to intervene after the stock market crash (yeah. FYI, markets fail.)”
That clearly shows your utter stupidity. Whatever you said is utterly wrong, historically and factually. Identify yourself if you really believed that your lunatic arguments are true. Give me your name and tell me who you are and I will deal with you anytime and I will make it sure I’m going to SLAP reality across your face. Most of my stupid commenters have the guts to say whatever they want here simply because they’re hiding behind troll names.
Perhaps you already know my name (if not I’ll give it to you). Let me challenge you then, tell me your name and who you are and I will debate you online. I don’t wanna argue with a troll as much as possible because trolls have the guts to say whatever fallacious arguments they want online. Now if you’re BRAVE enough and if you really believe your fallacious, non-factual arguments are true, you must be proud to take my challenge and debate me online using your real name.
Take my challenge or not?
Now if this know-it-all hippie won’t take my challenge, that simply means he’s stupid. However, if he won’t take my challenge, he might produce any of the following alibis:
- That he doesn’t time to deal with a dogmatic blogger like me;
- That he’s not that stupid to reveal his name or identity;
- He won’t reply.
- That he’d simply resort to evasion.
To this know-it-all hippie codenamed Samsung, accept the challenge and try to humiliate me online… if you can. Let me tell you that this blog receives not lower that 5,000 views daily.
THE VINCENTON POST 
My name is Jose (believe it or not)
Honestly, this will be a boring debate. It’s like Classical Econ vs. Keynesian Econ.
First, let me tell you that the Economic Policy of the United States before the Great Depression is based on Classical Economics (it is basically promotes free-market capitalism). The Federal Reserve was merely applying the principles that it prescribed. You can’t blame it all on the Federal Reserve. It is a quasi-public institution OWNED BY PRIVATE COMMERCIAL BANKS. The only connection of the government to it is the US President’s appointment of some members of the Board of Governors. Aside from that, there are no connections due to its politically insulated structure.
Basically, the Great Depression started from the Stock Market crash which led to large-scale bank failures. The bank-failure was mainly caused by the bank-runs which reduced the money supply in the market. In other words, the people in your very free market were hoarding money. Thus, the money multiplier sharply contracted. Fiscal policy too was very weak.
The world was on the gold standard, and the Federal Reserve had an abundance of gold reserves. The amount of money circulating in the economy was dependent on the amount of gold available. The Federal Reserve could have but did nothing to increase the money supply. In other words, it let the market act on its own.
Classical Economics (it is basically promoting free-market capitalism)*
Pare hindi mo naiintindihan ang sinasabi mo. Tingnan mo nga kung ano ang policies ni Herbert Hoover bago mo iblame sa “Free Market” ang great depression.
He was an interventionist to the bone. He reversed the Free Market policies of Coolidge. That’s what caused the Great Depression.
Give me your complete name. I know a lot of Joses. If you’re brave enough, tell me who are you are. Let me tell you that all of the people who engaged with me in a debate had the courage to reveal their identity.
You are Jose what? And what’s your school?
And this won’t be a boring debate. I’ll tell you, this will be a very exciting debate. Now, if you’re very sure of your premise and arguments, you should be proud to reveal your name.
Based on what you said it’ll be very easy to beat you. Everything you said, from my alleged ‘utilitarianism’, my ‘ethics’ and ‘politics’, is a product of your stupidity.
I spent a few years in law school and identity of parties is required in court cases. The same principle is applied to a debate, including an informal one. If you don’t get this, then you clearly have some mental problem. The name “Jose” is not enough to establish your identity. Identity, in this case, includes the full name, the profession, age, and even political affiliation/inclination of the party involved.
Huh? Jose Plaza. I’m from Agusan del Sur. I won’t tell you the name of my school because it’s not a part of my identity. I just hope you won’t commit argumentum ad hominem.
Samsung said:
“Huh? Jose Plaza. I’m from Agusan del Sur. I won’t tell you the name of my school because it’s not a part of my identity. I just hope you won’t commit argumentum ad hominem.”
And I’m Jose Carillo lol! My neighbor’s name is Jose Plaza. Are you afraid to enter this debate, Jose Smith? Lol! This debate will be very exciting… I’m not convinced. Better tell us who you are and that’s it…
Oh GOD! I won’t allow my pictures to be spread throughout the internet. I am a very private person. Freelance and law student? Who cares? It doesn’t change the fact that you have a shallow understanding of economics.
Shouldn’t you attack what I have said above? Can we move on now?
Let’s see who has a shallow understanding of Economics once your establish your identity. I’m not convinced. OK. You may message me on FB to tell me your identity in private if you’re afraid to be humiliated online.
Like I said, you’re just a piece of cake. Now, let’s not prolong this nonsense. Your identity is still incomplete.
Every intelligent and perceptive Economics student- and I’m taking Master’s in Econ not here in RP- knows that the real cause of Great Depression is the Fed. Let me see how this troll argues his case.
Even Federal Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke admitted that the GD was caused by the Fed, or by printing too much money out of thin air (if this moronic troll knows what this means). You may start with this http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=59405
Thanks for that link, Aris. I plan to write a very lengthy thesis to establish my premise that the Fed of 1913 caused the Great Depression. Of course, since leftists, liberals and Keynesians love statistics and calculations, I’d include these aspects in my lengthy position paper. Like I said, this debate is very interesting, however, I’d hope this troll knows what identity means and why it’s very important to know the opponent’s identity.
But this stupid troll seems to have missed the historical lessons of the past century yet he has the guts to claim his utterly erroneous theory/premise is correct. The fact that it takes him so long to reveal his identity explains he’s not here to engage in a formal discussion. Perhaps this stupid college-bred troll thinks I’m a Johnny-come-lately when it comes to this issue. He should have read my previous posts first before posting stupid rants on my site. These hippies carry the same traits: perhaps they think they’re good simply because they passed the UPCAT… What a very pathetic mentality.
Friedman and Schwartz emphasized at least four major errors by U.S. monetary policymakers.
1. the tightening of monetary policy
2. fixed exchange rate.
3. Open market operations
4. neglect of problems in the U.S. banking sector.
You have to keep in mind that the Fed policies were based on Mellow’s liquidationist thesis. Mellon opposed government intervention and bailing out failed banks. The economy would heal itself naturally after everything had failed and been sold-off in one gigantic fire-sale, he thought, but in the end Mellon’s approach failed to bring the Great Depression in the US to an end
I also have to cite this particular part of that article.
“The Federal Reserve had the power at least to ameliorate the problems of the banks. For example, the Fed could have been more aggressive in lending cash to banks (taking their loans and other investments as collateral), or it could have simply put more cash in circulation. Either action would have made it easier for banks to obtain the cash necessary to pay off depositors, which might have stopped bank runs before they resulted in bank closings and failures. Indeed, a central element of the Federal Reserve’s original mission had been to provide just this type of assistance to the banking system. The Fed’s failure to fulfill its mission was, again, largely the result of the economic theories held by the Federal Reserve leadership. Many Fed officials appeared to subscribe to the infamous “liquidationist” thesis of Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon, who argued that weeding out “weak” banks was a harsh but necessary prerequisite to the recovery of the banking system. Moreover, most of the failing banks were relatively small and not members of the Federal Reserve System, making their fate of less interest to the policymakers. In the end, Fed officials decided not to intervene in the banking crisis, contributing once again to the precipitous fall in the money supply.”
Don’t judge an article by its title.
I thank you for citing this wonderful article. Haven’t you read its conclusion? It actually supports my statements.
“Some important lessons emerge from the story. One lesson is that ideas are critical. The gold standard orthodoxy, the adherence of some Federal Reserve policymakers to the liquidationist thesis, and the incorrect view that low nominal interest rates necessarily signaled monetary ease, all led policymakers astray, with disastrous consequences. We should not underestimate the need for careful research and analysis in guiding policy. Another lesson is that central banks and other governmental agencies have an important responsibility to maintain financial stability. The banking crises of the 1930s, both in the United States and abroad, were a significant source of output declines, both through their effects on money supplies and on credit supplies. Finally, perhaps the most important lesson of all is that price stability should be a key objective of monetary policy. By allowing persistent declines in the money supply and in the price level, the Federal Reserve of the late 1920s and 1930s greatly destabilized the U.S. economy and, through the workings of the gold standard, the economies of many other nations as well.”
Are you going to dogmatically evade the fact that you need to establish your identity? Like I said, I can easily demolish whatever you said here. All I demand is for you to tell me who you are. I don’t think it’s difficult to understand why identity of parties is the FIRST, indispensable requisite in a debate.
No, Thanks. I also believe that you and Aristogeek are just the same person. Thanks for the article. I just hope you read it. You’re a lousy law student if you didn’t.
Oh yes… how long are you goin’ to evade the fact that you need to establish your identity, Samsung. Perhaps you have to check my blogs to find out that I don’t just deal with trolls.
No denial and same demands? It must be true.
Any proof to your stupid claim?
Wakokoko. Troll Wars?
Ang tanga tanga ng nagbigay ng link. Sasawsaw sana ako dito dahil napaka imposible ng isang economy na walang state intervention pero parang masyadong time-consuming. Damidaming babasahin.
Kung posible ang free-market, bakit kaya wala nang nagpapractice niyan ngayon?
Kung meron, magbigay kayo ng example.
Kung sino man si Samsung, ang tanga mo.. Dapat di mo na toh pinatulan..
To kurapika:
Kaw ang maliwanag na troll dito kasama si Samsung na duwag lol! Kung gusto mong sumali, wala ka na kasi wala ka namang utak para sa mga usapang ganito. Puro lang kayo angas at ere pero wala naman talagang binatbat. Look at Samsung, hanggang ngayon takot pa ring magbigay ng kanyang totoong pangalan kasi alam niya na mapapahiya siya ng todo dito hehe.
@ Samsung aka troll,
I respect Vincent’s request that you present your identity first before starting this debate. But let me point out something here by asking you these questions, if you really understand what you’re talking about?
Do you have any idea how “the tightening of monetary policy” could impact an economy? Do you have any idea of the economic danger of fixing the exchange rate? Do you have any idea how the Fed led to many policies that caused the Great Depression?
Do you know what former Pres. Woodrow Wilson said after signing the Fed R. Act?
Tightening of monetary policy basically means that the policies made by the Fed reduces the money supply in the economy. Therefore, what you were saying before “printing too much money” is opposite to what you were saying.
Tightening of monetary policy basically means that the policies made by the Fed reduces the money supply in the economy. Therefore, what you were saying before “printing too much money” is opposite to what happened.
OK. Let me address that matter later (once you established your identity).
So according to your understanding, what CAUSED the GREAT DEPRESSION?
Here’s what you said: “Basically, the Great Depression started from the Stock Market crash which led to large-scale bank failures. The bank-failure was mainly caused by the bank-runs which reduced the money supply in the market. In other words, the people in your very free market were hoarding money. Thus, the money multiplier sharply contracted. Fiscal policy too was very weak.”
Questions:
1. When did this “stock market crash” take place? Any source?
2. Kindly expound on your statement “bank-failure was mainly caused by the bank-runs which reduced the money supply in the market.” When did this bank-run take place? Any source to this claim?
3. Based on your understanding, what caused this so-called “bank-runs.”
1. SERIOUSLY?! Are you joking? It’s a well-known fact that the Great Depression started from the event known as Black Tuesday which occurred on October 29, 1929.
2. Banks failed because they did not have the reserves with which to meet costumers’ cash withdrawals, and in failing they destroyed deposits and hence reduced the money supply. But the failures went further in reducing the money stock, because they led to a loss of confidence on the part of the depositors and hence to an increase in the desired currency-deposit ratio.
3. So called?! Where the hell are you taking your masters?! The bank run was caused by the loss in confidence on part of the depositors. Geez…
First, read this troll https://fvdb.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/debate-challenge-to-a-stupid-college-bred-troll/#comment-6476
This reeks of stupidity: “SERIOUSLY?! Are you joking? It’s a well-known fact that the Great Depression started from the event known as Black Tuesday which occurred on October 29, 1929.”
What a stupid mind! You should understand that the effect of one government action or policy that does occur overnight. Black Tuesday did not occur own its own, idiot! Same with the 2008 financial collapse in the US. The trigger point of the GD was the black Tuesday. The trigger point of the 2008 financial crash was the collapse of the Lehman Brothers, idiot. If you really know your history, many things were done before 1929, which led to the automate collapse of the American economy. And the main, efficient cause is the Fed.
@ Samsung,
You said: “Don’t judge an article by its title.”
No one’s judging the article by its title. Let me state my observation here. Your previous posts reveal that you know NOTHING about everything you prattled on about.
Your statement above that the stock market crash caused the Great Depression reveals that you’re TOTALLY CLUELESS about the real history of the Great Depression. Even Keynesians who support the concept of contraction of money supply ‘somehow’ admit that the Fed caused the GD and its resulting New Deal policies.
I hope Vince would focus on your “stock market crash” stupid theory to expose you as an a college-bred know-it-all IGNORAMUS.
With the kind of moronic arguments you have, the more I’m convinced that you have to REVEAL YOUR IDENTITY first. Are you afraid to be humiliated? Of course knowing Vince, he’s going to HUMILIATE you, if not bury your six feet under.
*Still here. Waiting for my driver.*
Why don’t you say something against the article that you posted? It practically says that monetary policy is very important. Therefore, intervention is necessary to avoid such recessions. You obviously did not read it fully.
Nice drama… So where’s your identity. Now you have driver. You must be proud to reveal your identity… Afraid?
Read this https://fvdb.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/debate-challenge-to-a-stupid-college-bred-troll/#comment-6476
I’ll be returning tonight.
Are you going to reveal your real identity?
My answer to TROLL samsung who’s still afraid to reveal his identity:
How and why the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression?
There’s a lot of disinformation as to the real cause of the Great Depression. Many ignorant, misinformed people blame this economic catastrophe of the 1920s on laissez-fair capitalism and the so-called stock market collapse years before the creation of the Fed in 1913.
This moronic troll, Samsung, claimed that the Great Depression was caused by the stock market collapse. I asked above when did this stock market collapse take place, because reliable history books show that there was this stock market collapse years before the establishment of the Fed in 1913, and the Great Depression took place in the 1920s. So Samsung better address this issue.
I say that the GD was caused 100 percent by the Fed and its punitive tax policies.
The Fed in the mid-1920s exploited its cartel power to set interest rates at a really low level. This statist action led to inflation. Also, politically-affiliated insiders were aware that an alleged ‘economic boom’ was being set up, and at the beginning of this alleged boom, these insiders loaded up and bought assets before inflation set in.
For people and investors during that period, it was somehow OK and safe to borrow and buy assets with artificially low interest rates. A lot of small business owners and farmers were compelled to borrow so to keep up with competition. This establishes Vincent’s premise that Big Government caused every economic crisis in history.
Also, there was no ‘free market’ during this era, which was dominated by politically-connected people. So the real culprit was the Fed and the negative interest rates that sent wrong signals to the banking industry and borrowers. This means that the speculators were simply buying the false, distorted signal the Federal Reserve was sending through artificially low interest rates.
The Fed insiders in 1929 then opted to to jack up interest rates across the globe, causing an economic depression. Worse, the insiders knew this scenario was coming. However, what these insiders did is that they stopped issuing loans and converted all their holding to cash. It appears that the huge profiteers of the GD were the insiders had converted their holdings to cash before the coming of the economic crash. What they did after the crash is that they bought assets at a huge discount. This would not exist in a free market economy because of the fact that these unscrupulous insiders had political connections. They were able to enrich themselves with the help of the Fed and the corrupt government. Worse, the insiders were able to borrow and purchase more assets at the base of the GD because they were unleveraged.
What’s the result of the GD? U.S. Pres. Roosevelt in 1933 issued an executive order mandating the confiscation of everyone’s gold. The same thing would NOT have happened under a free market economy.
In effect, the GP achieved several statist objectives. It punished small farmers who were unable to pay their mortgages. It affected small businesses. It led to the cartelization of many industries, etc. All of these were caused by the Fed and its policies. And by the way, the Fed does not represent free market enterprise.
CORRECTION: “It appears that the huge profiteers of the GD were the insiders WHO converted their holdings to cash before the coming of the economic crash.”
The hardest person to debate is a clueless idiot who believes he knows what he’s talking about.
Upon reading Samsung’s argument that the Great Depression was caused by bank-runs and the Black Tuesday, I came to a conclusion that this guy is so clueless as to the real cause of the Great Depression. Many new reliable historical accounts point to the Fed as the real cause of the Great Depression. This guy still buys the Keynesian lie that that printing money out of thin air was the solution to economic progress.
He should read this:
The Federal Reserve is the most powerful institution of a new order that believed in the efficacy of government and its ability to do good. The same Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression when its wise men made a series of cumulative mistakes that contracted the money supply by one-third and wiped out purchasing power in an unprecedented fashion.
Economists could not at first explain the Depression because they were unaware of the dramatic shrinkage in the quantity of money. It was not until Friedman and Schwartz dug into the facts that the culpability of the Federal Reserve became known. Moreover, most economists found this culpability to be unwelcome information. In the 1960s economists were uniformly Keynesian in outlook. They were emotionally supportive of government intervention, and their human capital was invested in policies that rested on their belief in the effectiveness of government action. Although they could not refute the evidence, they did not warmly endorse the revelation that the Fed had caused the Great Depression.
So the great disconnect remains between the history books and the success of capitalism. By the mid-twentieth century, no country thought it could succeed with capitalism. By the beginning of the twenty-first century, no country thinks it can succeed without it.
Mistakes play a dramatic role in history. The Fed’s mistakes led to others even more serious — the New Deal and the massive delegation of legislative authority that breached the separation of powers. Here, then, is the history of those terrible mistakes, offered in the hope that it will challenge historians to abandon their ideologies, return to their craft, and give us a history that will better guide our future.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6214
Yes, I admit that the Fed had something to do with the Great Depression.
However, it was not the Fed per se that caused it. It was the policies that it made which was based on Mellon’s thesis.
By the way, I didn’t say that the stock exchange crash caused the depression.
You are obviously using Austrian Economics.
better read this if you really know Austrian Economics.
http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/critiques/critiques10.php
“In the 1960s economists were uniformly Keynesian in outlook. They were emotionally supportive of government intervention, and their human capital was invested in policies that rested on their belief in the effectiveness of government action. Although they could not refute the evidence, they did not warmly endorse the revelation that the Fed had caused the Great Depression.”
That’s precisely the point. Most Filipino economists still buy that Keynesian lie, which breeds a new generation of educated morons, especially from UP and other public schools.
This Samsung troll clearly speaks in terms of ‘very short range’ historical events. What he fails to understand- which exposes his stupidity- is that the disastrous effect a government action or policy does not manifest overnight or in just a very short span of time. In the Philippines, we have the 1987 Constitution which is the main cause of economic mess, yet stupid people tend to overlook or ignore the disastrous effects of the charter on the Philippine economy. Instead, they blame the markets and ask for more government intervention.
If you think they’re stupid, why waste time on them?
I think the blogger has a point in requiring Samsung to identify himself. Based on my observation, most commenters tend to post irresponsoble and stupid comments simply because they’re not identified.
Mas responsible kasi yung mga commenters na may totoong pangalan at yung mga bloggers din. So I think in the name of fairness and responsibility, dapat i-identify ni Samsung kung sino talaga siya hindi yung nagsasabi na lang siya ng kung anong pangalan. Ganun lang kasimple yun.
Since parang ayaw niyang i-identify yung sarili niya, that means hindi siya sure sa arguments niya o natatakot na mapahiya siya in the end.
Just an observation:
Samsung said: “Tightening of monetary policy basically means that the policies made by the Fed reduces the money supply in the economy. Therefore, what you were saying before “printing too much money” is opposite to what happened.”
Hmmm… it seems that this is the fundamental error of his simplistic argument. He should know that the Federal Reserve expanded the money supply by more than 60 percent from mid-1921 to mid-1929. In his book America’s Great Depression (page 89), Rothbard argued that this expansion of money and credit drove interest rates down, pushed the stock market to dizzy heights, and gave birth to the “Roaring Twenties.”
Everybody should read this concise article to know more about the cause of the Great Depression: the Fed and government intervention. http://fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/
You better read the article that aristogeek cited. It clearly says there that tightening of monetary policy was an error. If you don’t know what tightened monetary policy means, read an Economics books.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2004/200403022/default.htm
this is Bernanke’s full speech. Read it first before saying something.
Before anything else, read this.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm
It’s a timeline of what happened during the Great Depression.
You said, “This moronic troll, Samsung, claimed that the Great Depression was caused by the stock market collapse. I asked above when did this stock market collapse take place, because reliable history books show that there was this stock market collapse years before the establishment of the Fed in 1913, and the Great Depression took place in the 1920s. So Samsung better address this issue.”
First of all, I did not say that the Stock Market crash caused the Great Depression. I merely said that the Depression started with it. There a big difference between those two words.
“I say that the GD was caused 100 percent by the Fed and its punitive tax policies.
The Fed in the mid-1920s exploited its cartel power to set interest rates at a really low level. This statist action led to inflation. Also, politically-affiliated insiders were aware that an alleged ‘economic boom’ was being set up, and at the beginning of this alleged boom, these insiders loaded up and bought assets before inflation set in.”
You honestly do not know what you are talking about. First, the Federal Reserve does not and cannot have taxing policies. Only congress can do such policies! Are you crazy?! The Federal Reserve is only responsible for the monetary policies of the state. The structure of the Federal Reserve is also politically insulated.
I also have to clarify that there was a DEFLATION and not INFLATION during the Great Depression. Prices were falling due to the decreased demand of goods. So your statements about the politicians are probably just as false as your claim that there was severe inflation during the Great Depression.
“For people and investors during that period, it was somehow OK and safe to borrow and buy assets with artificially low interest rates. A lot of small business owners and farmers were compelled to borrow so to keep up with competition. This establishes Vincent’s premise that Big Government caused every economic crisis in history.
Also, there was no ‘free market’ during this era, which was dominated by politically-connected people. So the real culprit was the Fed and the negative interest rates that sent wrong signals to the banking industry and borrowers. This means that the speculators were simply buying the false, distorted signal the Federal Reserve was sending through artificially low interest rates.”
Supporting Austrian Economics? You should read this. http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/critiques/critiques10.php
You really don’t know what you are talking about. First of all, there are no political connections involved in the decisions of the Board of Governors. They are politically insulated because their budget is independent from the executive and legislative branch of government. By the way, there is no such thing as a negative interest rate during the great depression. (and for eternity. Why the hell should I lend my money if I’m going to receive less in return? That’s stupid!)
“The Fed insiders in 1929 then opted to to jack up interest rates across the globe, causing an economic depression. Worse, the insiders knew this scenario was coming.”
Wow! This is the most preposterous statement that you’ve made! In what way can a foreign Central Bank affect the interest rates of another Central Bank?! There are only three monetary tools that the Federal Reserve use: discount rate, open market operations, and reserve requirement. These three tools cannot affect the interest rates in other countries!!!!!!!
“What’s the result of the GD? U.S. Pres. Roosevelt in 1933 issued an executive order mandating the confiscation of everyone’s gold. The same thing would NOT have happened under a free market economy.”
And it was a good thing because it ended the Gold Standard which, by the way, IS A FIXED EXCHANGE RATE.
“In effect, the GP achieved several statist objectives. It punished small farmers who were unable to pay their mortgages. It affected small businesses. It led to the cartelization of many industries, etc. All of these were caused by the Fed and its policies. And by the way, the Fed does not represent free market enterprise.”
Statist objectives? Look who’s talking. You’re the one who’s supporting the abolition of the Public School System which would cause severe unemployment to our country.
Before anything else, read this.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm
It’s a timeline of what happened during the Great Depression.
You said, “This moronic troll, Samsung, claimed that the Great Depression was caused by the stock market collapse. I asked above when did this stock market collapse take place, because reliable history books show that there was this stock market collapse years before the establishment of the Fed in 1913, and the Great Depression took place in the 1920s. So Samsung better address this issue.”
First of all, I did not say that the Stock Market crash caused the Great Depression. I merely said that the Depression started with it. There a big difference between those two words.
“I say that the GD was caused 100 percent by the Fed and its punitive tax policies.
The Fed in the mid-1920s exploited its cartel power to set interest rates at a really low level. This statist action led to inflation. Also, politically-affiliated insiders were aware that an alleged ‘economic boom’ was being set up, and at the beginning of this alleged boom, these insiders loaded up and bought assets before inflation set in.”
You honestly do not know what you are talking about. First, the Federal Reserve does not and cannot have taxing policies. Only congress can do such policies! Are you crazy?! The Federal Reserve is only responsible for the monetary policies of the state. The structure of the Federal Reserve is also politically insulated.
I also have to clarify that there was a DEFLATION and not INFLATION during the Great Depression. Prices were falling due to the decreased demand of goods. So your statements about the politicians are probably just as false as your claim that there was severe inflation during the Great Depression.
“For people and investors during that period, it was somehow OK and safe to borrow and buy assets with artificially low interest rates. A lot of small business owners and farmers were compelled to borrow so to keep up with competition. This establishes Vincent’s premise that Big Government caused every economic crisis in history.
Also, there was no ‘free market’ during this era, which was dominated by politically-connected people. So the real culprit was the Fed and the negative interest rates that sent wrong signals to the banking industry and borrowers. This means that the speculators were simply buying the false, distorted signal the Federal Reserve was sending through artificially low interest rates.”
Supporting Austrian Economics? You should read this. http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/critiques/critiques10.php
You really don’t know what you are talking about. First of all, there are no political connections involved in the decisions of the Board of Governors. They are politically insulated because their budget is independent from the executive and legislative branch of government. By the way, there is no such thing as a negative interest rate during the great depression. (and for eternity. Why the hell should I lend my money if I’m going to receive less in return? That’s stupid!)
“The Fed insiders in 1929 then opted to to jack up interest rates across the globe, causing an economic depression. Worse, the insiders knew this scenario was coming.”
Wow! This is the most preposterous statement that you’ve made! In what way can a foreign Central Bank affect the interest rates of another Central Bank?! There are only three monetary tools that the Federal Reserve use: discount rate, open market operations, and reserve requirement. These three tools cannot affect the interest rates in other countries!!!!!!!
“What’s the result of the GD? U.S. Pres. Roosevelt in 1933 issued an executive order mandating the confiscation of everyone’s gold. The same thing would NOT have happened under a free market economy.”
And it was a good thing because it ended the Gold Standard which, by the way, IS A FIXED EXCHANGE RATE.
“In effect, the GP achieved several statist objectives. It punished small farmers who were unable to pay their mortgages. It affected small businesses. It led to the cartelization of many industries, etc. All of these were caused by the Fed and its policies. And by the way, the Fed does not represent free market enterprise.”
Statist objectives? Look who’s talking. You’re the one who’s supporting the abolition of the Public School System which would cause severe unemployment to our country.
You are an ardent supporter of the free market capitalism.
However, do you know that all of its assumptions are not possible in reality?
1. Information is abundant – This is a ridiculous assumption. A lot of things are happening in the economy and not all of them are seen by the actors.
2. All markets are open- There are natural barriers to trade which makes access to the market difficult.
3. Behavior is Economically Rational- Not everyone is an economist. One market assumption is that economic behavior is self-interested, and that markets operate best when everyone pursues their own self-interest. Economist and Nobel Prize winner Douglass North (1995) believes economic choices are a function not only of rational self-interest, but also of membership in a cultural group. Attributes of the cultural group direct behavior, but not all of these attributes worldwide are consistent with economic self-interest or wealth maximization. An example: Ivory Coast tailor Lazare Koffi reported that he is might have opened two or three businesses or even a real store except for his obligation to share profits with his family (French, 1995). Mr. Koffi’s experience shows that in the Ivory Coast economic rationality involves a trade-off with family membership.
@ Samsung,
Now you said after having seen the historical truth about the Great Depression: “Yes, I admit that the Fed had something to do with the Great Depression. However, it was not the Fed per se that caused it. It was the policies that it made which was based on Mellon’s thesis.”
However, this is what you, idiot, said in one of your previous posts: “The cause of the Great Depression was not caused by a big government. (You make me laugh. It’s the other way around) Due to the failure of the government to intervene after the stock market crash (yeah. FYI, markets fail.) and its inaction to prevent the banks from failing, unemployment rose and there was a downward shift in investment demand. The US government that time surely did their best to stay away from the economy. Look at what happened. You obviously didn’t know that the lesson learned from the Great Depression is that a private economy is inherently unstable- that recessions can occur spontaneously. It’s no longer theories that prove this; It’s reality.” https://fvdb.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/cut-the-education-budget/#comment-6396
Based on what you said, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about because you don’t understand how the Federal Reserve works. Let me address what you said about my post below.
Now the question is: How the Federal Reserve caused inflation and the issuance of interventionist policies that led to the Great Depression?
Here’s a good source: “The Federal Reserve creates inflation when it issues US dollars backed by government debt. Since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created by Congress, your money has lost 96% of its purchasing power due to inflation. The more “money” the Federal Reserve creates – the less your Federal Reserve “money” will buy. From 1913 to 2001 the national debt grew to $6 trillion in 88 years. In the next three years it climbed to $7 trillion dollars in 2004. In just one year it climbed sharply to over $8 trillion dollars. The acceleration of the national debt is alarming. The corresponding loss of your purchasing power may also accelerate in the near future.” http://www.jeremiahproject.com/trashingamerica/federal-reserve.html
You said: “You honestly do not know what you are talking about. First, the Federal Reserve does not and cannot have taxing policies.”
The Fed justified the creation of Income tax also in 1913 simply because money would be created through expansion of credit. There’s a logical connection between the Fed and income tax. If the US government’s going to use the FED to create debt, who is going to repay that debt? The income tax was created to complete the illusion that real money had been lent and therefore real money had to be repaid. This is how the Fed works.
Just read this to educate yourself on how the Fed caused inflation and lured banks and borrowers to borrow more money due to the artificially low interest rates. http://mises.org/rothbard/agd/chapter4.asp#inflation
Now, based on what you said in your previous posts, you claimed that the free-market and lack of regulation or government intervention caused the Great Depression. Kindly elaborate on this? Kindly show proof.
Your latest posts and the previous ones contradict each other simply because you know NOTHING about this issue. Now explain how the free market caused the GD. Let me repeat that I agree with Vincent’s claim that the Fed and Big Government caused the GD.
If you didn’t know, the problem during the Great Depression was DEFLATION!!!!!! NOT INFLATION!!!!!!!!!!
STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!! STUPID!!
hey stupid!
It’s true that one of the major causes of the Great Depression was the deflationary policies of the Federal Reserve, yet that stage push the Fed to push for its inflationary policies.
Don’t you know, stupid, that your answer is AN IMPLIED ADMISSION that the Fed caused the Great Depression!!! You IDIOT!
I think there’s nothing more to debate because you’re now admitting that the Fed and its bad policies caused the Great Depression. You answered it yourself. You’re right in saying that the Great Depression was deflationary, but what caused this tragic incident? It’s the Federal Reserve, IDIOT!!!
Since the topic of this debate is the CAUSE of the Great Depression, there’s nothing more to blame except the Fed and the bad policies of the Federal government.
You cannot blame the free market because it didn’t exist during the Hoover administration, IDIOT! You don’t understand this because you’re so STUPID. \
Now read this to educate yourself! http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/amerman021209.html
Nothing to debate because you’re cornered.
My stand: It is the Fed’s inaction that led to the Great Depression.
Your stand: Big government caused the Great Depression.
stupid!
Let me focus on this moronic comment of yours before I log out: “Yes, I admit that the Fed had something to do with the Great Depression. However, it was not the Fed per se that caused it. It was the policies that it made which was based on Mellon’s thesis.”
I think the original premise of Vincent is very clear: That the Great Depression was caused by the Fed and Big Government. I support this premise by adding that the Federal Government’s policies and punitive taxes that helped create the GD. Let me clarify the comment I made above: “I say that the GD was caused 100 percent by the Fed and its punitive tax policies.” I maintain that stance yet me clarify by stating: “The Fed and the Federal Government’s punitive tax policies.”
Now, what are the the policies that it (?) made? And kindly explain Mellon’s thesis? So let me make my question very clear: “What are these policies that the Fed made? Are you now revising your stupid original stance that the policies of the Fed caused the GD? Are you saying that it’s NOT the Fed “per se” that caused the GD, but its “policies that it made”? Kindly elaborate on this HIGHLY STUPID comment…
“Now, what are the the policies that it (?) made? And kindly explain Mellon’s thesis? So let me make my question very clear: “What are these policies that the Fed made? Are you now revising your stupid original stance that the policies of the Fed caused the GD? Are you saying that it’s NOT the Fed “per se” that caused the GD, but its “policies that it made”? Kindly elaborate on this HIGHLY STUPID comment…”
You always ask stupid questions. It just shows your stupidity in Economics.
Remember the speech that you cited? That is how my stance is supposed to be understood. Bad policy is bad for the economy but having no policy is worse. THAT’S WHAT THE SPEECH WAS TALKING ABOUT!
Better read the following
Macroeconomics by Dornbusch, Fisher and Startz
Understanding the Economics of Money, Banking and Financial Markets by Mishkin
You’re strategy of avoiding your mistakes using Austrian Economics is despicable. Please prove first that its assumptions are true before using it.
Your strategy of avoiding your mistakes using Austrian Economics is despicable. PROVE THAT ITS ASSUMPTIONS ARE TRUE BEFORE USING IT!!
You obviously lack economic knowledge just as I said in the beginning. You even made several mistakes such as citing a speech that was supporting my side.
STUDY ECONOMICS FIRST BEFORE TALKING ABOUT IT! THESE THINGS ARE VERY DELICATE AND CANNOT BE LEARNED BY MERELY LOOKING AT THE INTERNET. EMPIRICAL STUDIES MUST BE ANALYZED TO THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND THE ECONOMY.
THEORIES WHICH ARE BASED ON IMPOSSIBLE ASSUMPTIONS MUST NOT BE USED TO TALK ABOUT REALITY. GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION (which are based on sound theories) IS IMPORTANT FOR THE ECONOMY BECAUSE IT PREVENTS IT FROM FAILING.
Stupid. Look at what happened in the Soviet Union. Was the economy saved because of government intervention?! No! It was destroyed by it.
Read this man. This’ll educate you.
Click to access Economics_in_one_lesson.pdf
I’ve had enough my dose of Introductory Economics. I know what I am saying. Let me reiterate what I have said above.
“Bad policy is bad for the economy but having no policy is worse.”
If you truly believe in the free-market system, then prove to me first that its assumptions are true.
I’ve had enough dose of Introductory Economics. I know what I am saying. Let me reiterate what I have said above.
“Bad policy is bad for the economy but having no policy is worse.”
If you truly believe in the free-market system, then prove to me first that its assumptions are true.
It’s not introductory economics. It’s a book that demolishes every stupid Keynesian assumption people have. Read it. It’s short and a classic. You’ll see the most concise arguments against what you’re saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_in_One_Lesson
Before you study Keynesian Economics, you need to understand the free-market economy. Dufus!
It also can’t prove that the free market market capitalism assumptions are true. Before saying anything, please prove them!!!
This stupid statist clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. In case he forgot the main topic, let me remind him: The real cause of the Great Depression. Vincent said it’s the Federal Reserve and Big Government. This idiot blames the free market which didn’t exist during the administration of Hoover and more so during the administration of Roosevelt. Well, because he’s stupid, perhaps he thinks that the semi-private Fed and the profiteers during that period represent free market capitalism. If that’s the case, then this idiot must be hallucinating or is just plain crazy.
It’s either or. It’s either the GD was caused by the Fed and the Federal Government or the free market. No matter what obfuscating information this idiot posts, the fact remains that the Fed and the interventionist government caused the Great Depression, and both historical accounts and economic reports support this claim.
What you have forgotten is that you’re using Austrian Economics which are based on crazy assumptions.
What you have forgotten is that you’re using Austrian Economics which is based on crazy assumptions.
You talk as if the Fed only has one effect on the Economy. FYI, it can do a lot of things. Its mere existence, without considering its actions, cannot be blamed on the Great Depression.
The best economic explanation of the Great Depression was provided bytAustrian economic theorists, which include F.A. Hayek and Murray Rothbard. Rothbard wrote “America’s Great Depression” in 1963. In their view, the Great Depression was the inevitable outcome of the easy credit policies of the Federal Reserve during the 1920s. Since its enactment in 1913, the Federal Reserve had served as the central bank of the U.S. The Federal reserve effectively regulated the amount of credit private banks could issue by providing overnight loans and strict reserve requirements.
The problem with this policy is that the reserve rate and interest rates were centrally decided then uniformly applied to all banks. This central mechanism of interest rate and fractional reserve rate determination stands in stark contrast to market mechanisms distributed and specific to each bank. Uniform central bank policies allowed banks with poor lending policies to have easy access to credit — as easy as conservative banks. Austrian theorists hold that the key cause of the Depression was the expansion of the money supply in the 1920s that led to an unsustainable credit-driven boom. In their view, the Federal Reserve, which was created in 1913, shoulders much of the blame. By the time the Fed belatedly tightened in 1928, it was far too late and, in the Austrian view, a depression was inevitable.
The artificial interference in the economy was a disaster prior to the Depression, and government efforts to prop up the economy after the crash of 1929 only made things worse. According to Rothbard, government intervention delayed the market’s adjustment and made the road to complete recovery more difficult.
Rothbard criticizes Milton Friedman’s assertion that the central bank failed to inflate the supply of money. Rothbard asserts that the Federal Reserve purchased $1.1 billion of government securities from February to July 1932, which raised its total holding to $1.8 billion. Total bank reserves only rose by $212 million, but Rothbard argues that this was because the American populace lost faith in the banking system and began hoarding more cash, a factor very much beyond the control of the Central Bank. The potential for a run on the banks caused local bankers to be more conservative in lending out their reserves, and, Rothbard argues, was the cause of the Federal Reserve’s inability to inflate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression
Copy paste? Prove mo daw assumptions niyan. LOL!
@Samsung: Pare, grabe ang tanga mo. Nakakapikon ka. You shouldn’t use the name “Samsung” either. It’s an honest business company that shouldn’t be associated with your statist B.S.
If you can’t prove the truth of the assumptions, I’ll leave you with your imaginary system. You don’t have any attachment to reality.
By the way, your statements sound familiar? Copy paste much? hahahah!
What I expect from you if you reply
1. To prove that your assumptions are true
2. To understand the the Fed’s existence, without consideration of its actions, cannot be blamed for the Great Depression.
3. To stop using Austrian Economics unless you’ve proven that its assumptions are true
4. To deny the outstanding speech of Bernanke (that you have cited) that clearly says that INTERVENTION IS IMPORTANT TO THE ECONOMY
@ idiotic Samsung,
First, I’ve explained here how the Fed caused the GD https://fvdb.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/debate-challenge-to-a-stupid-college-bred-troll/#comment-6476
Second, you admitted that the Fed contributed to the GD, which significantly contradicted your original position that Big Government didn’t caused it.
Now, YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF to explain how the free market caused the GD instead.
Prove that Keynes’ assumptions are true and correct in spite of clear modern economic trends that prove that this statist economist was in fact a FRAUD.
Read this first after proving your assumptions.
YOU’RE SO STUPID THAT YOU DON’T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN INFLATION AND A DEFLATION.
Let me reiterate this to emphasize your stupidity and your explanation is wrong beyond reasonable doubt!
“I say that the GD was caused 100 percent by the Fed and its punitive tax policies. The Fed in the mid-1920s exploited its cartel power to set interest rates at a really low level. This statist action led to inflation. Also, politically-affiliated insiders were aware that an alleged ‘economic boom’ was being set up, and at the beginning of this alleged boom, these insiders loaded up and bought assets before inflation set in.”
You honestly do not know what you are talking about. First, the Federal Reserve does not and cannot have taxing policies. Only congress can do such policies! Are you crazy?! The Federal Reserve is only responsible for the monetary policies of the state. The structure of the Federal Reserve is also politically insulated.
I also have to clarify that there was a DEFLATION and not INFLATION during the Great Depression. Prices were falling due to the decreased demand of goods. So your statements about the politicians are probably just as false as your claim that there was severe inflation during the Great Depression.
About my statement about the Fed:
As I have said, the actor and its actions are very different.
The Fed’s existence did not cause the Depression but its wrong policies based on policies that let the market work on its own. I have said this earlier.
aristogeek, you’re one stupid person. Don’t know how to quit when you can’t answer my questions?
You failed to meet my expectations:
1. To prove that your assumptions are true
2. To understand the the Fed’s existence, without consideration of its actions, cannot be blamed for the Great Depression.
3. To stop using Austrian Economics unless you’ve proven that its assumptions are true
4. To deny the outstanding speech of Bernanke (that you have cited) that clearly says that INTERVENTION IS IMPORTANT TO THE ECONOMY
I am not really a big fan of debates. I only did this to prove that your stand is wrong.
If we had a mediator, I think I will be declared as the winner based on my superior debating strategy. You’ve said a lot of mistakes and asked a lot of VERY STUPID QUESTIONS.
Aren’t you ashamed of yourself? Debating about something that you’re not familiar with is stupid. Don’t act as if you know what you’re saying (wikipedia and google won’t help you on that). I don’t even think that you know basic Econometrics or even simple Mathematical Economics. I was tempted to use their concepts but I know that you won’t understand it. You don’t even understand shallow concepts in Macroeconomics.
Since Samsung remains a troll, my response to this public debate is as follows:
Be it understood folks that whatever we like to share, everything boils down to this: that market already existed long before government begun. Market doesn’t need government. If you are a entrepreneur and competent enough, you will never need government because what government does primarily is to promote incompetence by protecting incompetent entrepreneurs.
Precisely. Imagine a self-sufficient private city or financial hub. A business hub in the Philippines funded by private money is Libis in Quezon city. The whole place is privately-owned, including its thoroughfares and main streets. The government did not and does not contribute anything except impediment and regulations.
How inacurate.. It was the primitive government that existed first before the market.. Jeez.. Stupid people…
Lol! What’s inaccurate, troll? Kindly expound your so ignorant, absurd statement that “it was the primitive government that existed first before the market”?