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Anarcho-Capitalism and Intellectual Property Right

December 10, 2009

In his blog entry on, Stephan Kinsella, an avowed student of Murray Rothbard, states the following:

You own the product of your own mind... You have the right to its use, possession, use, and disposition. You have the right not to share it. You have the right to destroy it... You're not a slave.

You own the product of your own mind... You have the right to its use, possession, improvement, and disposition. You have the right not to share it. You have the right to destroy it... You're not a slave.

“And libertarian discussions of IP often confuse the details of the law under debate. In fact, it’s common for libertarians to conflate trademark, copyright, and patent (Murray Rothbard talked about a copyright on a mousetrap, which is an invention and therefore the subject of patents).

“Another reason is that from the beginning, the IP issue nagged at me. I was never satisfied with Ayn Rand’s justification for it. Her argument is a bizarre mixture of utilitarianism with overwrought deification of “the creator” — not the Creator up there, but Man, The Creator, who has a property right in what He Creates. Her proof that patents and copyrights are property rights is lacking.

… “But libertarianism’s initial presumption should have been that IP is invalid, not the other way around. After all, we libertarians already realize that “intellectual” rights, such as the right to a reputation protected by defamation law, are illegitimate. Why, then, would we presume that other laws, protecting intangible, intellectual rights, are valid — especially artificial rights that are solely the product of legislation, i.e., decrees of the fake-law-generating wing of a criminal state?

“But IP is widely seen as basically legitimate. Sure, there have always been criticisms of existing IP laws and policies. You can point to hundreds of obviously ridiculous patents, and hundreds of obviously outrageous abuses. There are absurd patents on ways of swinging on a swing, faster-than-light communications, and one-click purchasing; there are $100 million- and billion-dollar patent-lawsuit awards; there are millions of dollars in copyright liability imposed on consumers for sharing a few songs. Books are even banned — quite literally — in the name of copyright”.

Here’s my reply to that collectivist idea of Mr. Kinsella:

It’s disgusting to observe how Rothbard hijacked the von Mises circle and the Libertarian Party. A person who rejects intellectual property right is the worst defender, no, the worst enemy of capitalism. IP guarantees that you own the product of your own mind and that you exercise the right of ownership over your property. There are attributes of property, such as possidendi (poessession), utendi (use), fruendi (fruits), abutendi (consume), dispodendi (dispose), and even the destruction of one’s property. Now just because a person embraces anarcho-capitalism, he cannot claim that these things that made the United States the greatest country on earth do not exist. The rejection of IP is tantamount to the enshrinement of communism, wherein all property, inventions and discoveries are owned by the people or the communal state. The IP and patent law are the reason why most scientists and inventors like Nikola Tesla migrated to the United States, the only country in the 18th century that respected man’s right to life, liberty and property.

Stephan Kinsela and the people who reject IP and enshrine anarchism simply want to bring our modern civilization to primitive jungle wherein rational, objective principles, and moral philosophy are nonexistent. These people, the anarchists, are worse than the socialists or communists. They reject the idea that contradiction cannot exist. Philosophically and ideologically, they are Kantians, subjectivists and relativists. They don’t recognize the most fundamental law of logic, namely, Aristotle’s law of identity. They wanted to blast the philosophical foundation of the United States, which holds that man has the right to his life, liberty, property, and pursuit of happiness, a philosophical concept that made America the greatest country on earth. This is the reason why anarcho-capitalism is a dangerous floating abstraction which has no definite philosophical base and direction. This immoral, evil idea is anti-Man and anti-Freedom.

It’s pretty clear that Kinsella is advocating for the abolition of IP to justify Rothbard’s anti-intellectual, anti-capitalist act of plagiarism. Kinsella’s communistic/collectivist proposal has no room in our civilized world. The world has achieved phenomenal success because of this legal principle and the philosophy of Aristotle which is the basis of America’s Constitution. IP exists even in socialist countries because the free-market system compels the socialists to respect rational standards. China joined the WTO in 2001 after it vowed to recognize rational principles like IP right, property rights, among others.

Suppose you have discovered a cure for cancer and AIDS, under Mr. Kinsella’s collectivist terms everybody who did not share your hard work and who did not spend so many years of labor, money, energy and efforts could simply loot the product of your own mind. Under the terms of Mr. Kinsella, everybody has the right to force Bill Gates, Apple, and the inventors who worked hard in order to profit from the products of their mind and ability. This simply shows that anarcho-capitalism is anti-individualism and is part and parcel of collectivism. It is a prelude to everything that a rational man should be afraid of. It is anti-man and anti-capitalism at best. Kinsella’s proposal and his anarcho-capitalism will only lead to a mob rule wherein only the potential dictators and the mystics can have an advantage over rational men.

Kinsella’s anti-capitalist/collectivist proposal suggests that man is a slave and that men have the right to the property and the products of the mind of other men. That man is compelled by some sort of social contract to share his property and everything that proceeds from his efforts and ability to create wealth. The philosophy behind his proposal is “man is his brother’s keeper.” This simply means that anarcho-capitalism is a gateway to various kinds or derivatives of collectivism. The axiom of Kinsella’s proposal is this Marxist credo– “FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITIES, TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEEDS.” Ergo, Kinsella’s proposition is the best mystical tool for the looters and the moochers who only rely on the ability and energy of thinking men. It is a proof that anarcho-capitalism is simply a floating abstraction which gives due advantage to the mystics and potential dictators. Yes, Mr. Kinsella, you are a closet collectivist. You’re a collectivist but you just don’t know it.

Now let me reproduce here the argument made by Greg Perkins against some Libertarian scholars against intellectual property. Perkins wrote the following:

“Abandoning intellectual property protection is saying that the author who invests thirteen years in writing a bestseller has no more right to profit from its sale than anybody else. It is saying the studio that risks $100 million on producing a blockbuster movie has no right to set the terms of its use to enjoy blockbuster profits, even though it retains the sole right to suffer the losses of a flop. The same is true for the labs that invest billions in developing mechanical, electronic, and virtual tools and toys that improve peoples’ lives. It is saying that biotech companies who risk vast fortunes and decades of sweat in striving to create life-saving drugs and population-sustaining crops should simply give away the benefits of their risk, toil, and dedicated genius.

“It is true that the sudden abandonment of intellectual property rights would be a boon for manufacturers and customers, instigating a burst of wealth-creation as they deployed formerly protected ideas more freely. But this would be short-lived and stagnation would soon follow as those who might have risked, invested, toiled, and dedicated their genius to the next opportunity simply shrug. Creators would stand aside and not bother, or they would spend their minds on developing those (much more limited) things which aren’t easily copied and imitated. Having killed the proverbial goose that lays the golden eggs, countless life-serving creations would come more slowly or not at all. Why risk a billion dollars and half a lifetime attempting to develop a cure for cancer if others can profit by that achievement any way they see fit? Then decline would follow stagnation as shifting conditions in populations and resource availability bring new challenges that will go unmet.20

But again, disastrous practical results alone are not a full justification; they are only a (very strong) hint that there is a deeper explanation we must appreciate, an important fact we need to respect. In this case, the numbingly unjust and destructive results are ultimately caused by the denial of the crucial role of ideas in wealth-creation. Rand summarized it this way:

Every type of productive work involves a combination of mental and physical effort: of thought and of physical action to translate that thought into a material form. The proportion of these two elements varies in different types of work. At the lowest end of the scale, the mental effort required to perform unskilled manual labor is minimal. At the other end, what the patent and copyright laws acknowledge is the paramount role of mental effort in the production of material values; these laws protect the mind’s contribution in its purest form: the origination of an idea.21

In the example I gave above, if A, scientist, discovered the cure for AIDS, and the IP socialists succeeded in abolishing the IP law, he now has to choose between manufacturing the cure for AIDS  and keeping his discovery a secret. But suppose he chose to manufacture the cure for AIDS and as a result, the idea or the formulation became known to big-time  pharmaceutical corporations, how can he now compete with multinational pharmaceutical companies who stole his idea if he only had a small capital to put up his own pharmaceutical company in order to mass produce the cure for AIDS?

Under the terms of the IP socialists, the big gangs would end up as the beneficiaries of the “intangible ideas” created by creators and producers. The concept of copyright and intellectual property right entails that an “intangible idea” has value. But the question is: value for whom? Whether a thing is intangible or tangible, if it has value, it is considered a property. If one is willing to pay for the idea of another person, that thing, which is the subject of payment, is considered a property. A trade secret is a property, which must be protected against a company’s competitors. Information, which has value, is a property. Such information, if it pertains to the management strategies and scientific techniques of a company, which might put the it’s viability at risk if known to its competitors, has a corresponding value to the company’s management stakeholders.

Suppose Inventor A discovered a machine that can produce an infinite amount of energy, and this machine, which does not consume any fuel, converts vibration into electricity. Inventor A knows that his technology is possible and has a great commercial value, but under the terms of the IP socialists like Mr. Kinsella, any bigger gang out there can loot the product of his own mind since there is no guarantee that his IP right would be protected. What should a creator like Inventor A do now that a social contract exists allowing everybody to have the right to the idea or invention of everybody? You may proceed from here…

It must be observed that the creepy, dishonest scheme of the anarcho-capitalists is that they attempt to elevate their political cause to the realm of reason. They are merely plagiarizing the style of Immanuel Kant who distorted reason by divorcing it from reality. Now these subjectivist, relativist and logical positivist proponents of anarcho-capitalism seek to widen the breach between reason and reality by also distorting the meaning of freedom, liberty, individual rights, and capitalism. Politically and philosophically, these proponents and supporters of anarcho-capitalism, most especially the disciples of Murray Rothbard, are pragmatists.

Ayn Rand wrote:

“In the name of reason, Pragmatism established a range-of-the-moment view as an enlightened perspective on life, context-dropping as a rule of epistemology, expediency as a principle of morality, and collective subjectivism as a substitute for metaphysics. Logical Positivism carried it farther and, in the name of reason, elevated the immemorial psycho-epistemology of shyster-lawyers to the status of a scientific epistemological system—by proclaiming that knowledge consists of linguistic manipulations.”

Furthermore, here’s Ayn Rand’s idea of patent and copyright: “Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man’s right to the product of his mind.”

It is important to understand that everything in this universe falls into two fundamental categories: tangible and intangible. Tangible things or property include machines, laboratories, computers, air, water, electricity, etc., while intangible entities are ideas produced by the mind. In order for man to survive, he must use reason. In order for man to have a comfortable and better life, he must discover new things. Everything existed in this world before man discovered them. It took man thousands of years before discovering electricity. Man discovered, through the use of his mind, that air, water, earth and fire are a potential form of energy that can be converted into an actual product: electricity. It is the rational idea from man’s working mind that led to the discovery of things that we have today, which makes life more comfortable. Under the law of identity, there can be no material entity without man’s productive use of his mind. There can be no commercially useful things without man’s productive idea. To deprive man of the product of his own mind is to allow every looter and moocher to appropriate it.

Ayn Rand further wrote:

“What the patent and copyright laws acknowledge is the paramount role of mental effort in the production of material values; these laws protect the mind’s contribution in its purest form: the origination of an idea. The subject of patents and copyrights is intellectual property.

“An idea as such cannot be protected until it has been given a material form. An invention has to be embodied in a physical model before it can be patented; a story has to be written or printed. But what the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. By forbidding an unauthorized reproduction of the object, the law declares, in effect, that the physical labor of copying is not the source of the object’s value, that that value is created by the originator of the idea and may not be used without his consent; thus the law establishes the property right of a mind to that which it has brought into existence.

“It is important to note, in this connection, that a discovery cannot be patented, only an invention. A scientific or philosophical discovery, which identifies a law of nature, a principle or a fact of reality not previously known, cannot be the exclusive property of the discoverer because: (a) he did not create it, and (b) if he cares to make his discovery public, claiming it to be true, he cannot demand that men continue to pursue or practice falsehoods except by his permission. He can *copyright the book in which he presents his discovery and he *can demand that his authorship of the discovery be acknowledged, that no other man appropriate or plagiarize the credit for it—but he cannot copyright theoretical knowledge. Patents and copyrights pertain only to the practical application of knowledge, to the creation of a specific object which did not exist in nature—an object which, in the case of patents, may never have existed without its particular originator; and in the case of copyrights, would never have existed.

“The government does not “grant” a patent or copyright, in the sense of a gift, privilege, or favor; the government merely secures it—i.e., the government certifies the origination of an idea and protects its owner’s exclusive right of use and disposal.”

Dr. Harry Binswanger, of the Ayn Rand Institute, clearly explained the psychology of the anarcho-capitalists. Dr. Binswanger wrote:

“The anarchist claim merits discussion only to illustrate the sort of self-defeating contradictions generated by anti-philosophical movements, of which the so-called “libertarians” are a prime example.

“A proper government is restricted to the protection of individual rights against violation by force or the threat of force. A proper government functions according to objective, philosophically validated procedures, as embodied in its entire legal framework, from its constitution down to its narrowest rules and ordinances. Once such a government, or anything approaching it, has been established, there is no such thing as a “right” to “compete” with the government—i.e., to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Nor does one gain such a “right” by joining with others to go into the “business” of wielding force.

“To carry out its function of protecting individual rights, the government must forcibly bar others from using force in ways that threaten the citizens’ rights. Private force is force not authorized by the government, not validated by its procedural safeguards, and not subject to its supervision.

“The government has to regard such private force as a threat—i.e., as a potential violation of individual rights. In barring such private force, the government is retaliating against that threat.”

Really, it’s not surprising that the anarcho-capitalists are Kantians and modern-day propagators of logical positivism, pragmatism, relativism, and subectivism.


(The above quotation is reprinted from the August 1981 issue of The Objectivist Forum.)

Don’t Steal This Article: On the Libertarian Critique of Intellectual Property by Greg Perkins.

19 Comments leave one →
  1. Jay Lakner permalink
    December 10, 2009 3:38

    Vincent wrote:
    “Whether a thing is intangible or tangible, if it has value, it is considered a property. If one is willing to pay for the idea of another person, that thing which is the subject of payment is considered a property.”

    The author of the article defines property as: anything that has value.

    The entire case of the author is dependent on this completely flawed definition of property. Not only does it completely ignore the differences between tangible and intangible entities, but also allows us to regard non-existent things as property and inaction as property.

    If I value the fact that gigantic space elephants don’t exist, that means the non-existence of gigantic space elephants is property.

    If I’m willing to pay someone money not to sing, that means I value that person not-singing. Therefore not-singing is property.

    If I value things that don’t smell like poo, then that means not-smelling-like-poo is property.

    The use of such a broad definition of property, which ignores the fundamental differences between the tangible and intangible, as a starting assumption to one’s philosophic view of the universe must lead to inaccurate conclusions.

    The assignment of ownership to intangible things is one such inaccurate conclusion.

    • December 10, 2009 3:38

      Like I said, I cannot argue a negative. It’s impossible to argue a negative. Kinsella and his ilk are now trying to use the English language against us, by distorting the concepts of such terms as IP rights, capitalism, freedom, and individual rights in favor of their stateless fantasy. First of all, anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms. It disregards the fundamental law of logic, namely, Aristotle’s law of identity. That A is A. Individual rights is a rational concept based on the nature of man. That man has the right to his life, property, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Anarchism is a breach of all of these rights. It is the nature of man to live in an orderly society. Anarchism rejects order. And it is the dreadful scheme of the anarcho-capitalists to distort the meaning of words against man. I call it 1984 scheme. They define freedom based on a floating abstraction that is anarchism. They shout that freedom is guaranteed under anarchism. They tied capitalism to anarchism to produce a soothing effect– to make it acceptable to unthinking men. Now, these Libertarian scholars are turning against one attributes of property right, which is IP right and copyright. They believe that IP law creates artificial scarcity so it must be abolished. They claim that the abolition of IP law is pursuant to their defense of individual rights and capitalism. Now this is a clear example of semantic corruption.
      You should understand that the function of IP rights is to protect the manufacture of creations, that is, of things that did not and would not otherwise come into existence.
      Like Perkins wrote: “Before a novel has been written, absolutely nobody has the power to publish it, so its being authored cannot remove any liberty previously enjoyed by printers. And before some better mousetrap is invented, nobody has the power to produce it — so its being invented cannot deny manufacturers any previously enjoyed freedom.”
      You should understand the “real” source of wealth is man’s mind. Nothing can be created and looted by the socialists and collectivists without the proper functioning of man’s mind. The ideas that originate from man’s mind are simply abstractions, which can be converted into concretes. That intangible idea has value to the person who conceived it. He can choose to keep it a secret, but he must not be compelled to share it with his neighbors. This is the reason why inventive step is one patentability requirement present in most patent laws. That a novel idea must be new. That an invention must be useful and susceptible of industrial application. All inventions came from abstract ideas which have value to their creators.
      If, using my example, a person discovered the cure for AIDS. He spent years, money, energy and efforts in his laboratory to come up with a scientific formulation for a cure for this deadly decease. Under the terms of the IP socialists, this inventive idea can be appropriated by anyone. But under the terms of the socialists, can you expect the men of ability to create wealth and new inventions? In effect, the Libertarian scholars’ rejection of IP rights is tantamount to placing a moratorium on man’s brain. Their advocacy would only lead to actual scarcity of wealth and creations.
      But the thing here is that anarcho-capitalism is merely a fantasy that has no value at all in the real world. It only exists in the minds of its proponents and supporters.

      • Jay Lakner permalink
        December 10, 2009 3:38

        You have not addressed my comments.

        To loosely define property as, “anything that has value”, cannot be a truly fundamental starting point. You end up with multiple forms of property that have different characteristics.

        A truly correct philosophic view of the universe must acknowledge the differences between tangible and intangible, rather than bundling them into the same category. Maybe you should start with something along the following lines:

        1) There are two types of entities, tangible and intangible.
        2) A human being is a tangible material.
        3) Constructions of the human mind are intangible materials.
        4) To survive humans must act.
        5) Action requires the transformation of tangible materials.
        6) Action can therefore be defined as the application of an intangible construction to a tangible material.
        … and so on until the concept of property is determined. Only then can you truly have a fundamental definition of property.

        I’ll leave it up to you to either finish/restructure/ignore this approach.

        Until you somehow logically deal with the differences between tangible and intangible in your philosophy, I cannot possibly bring myself to adopt the same views as you.

  2. December 10, 2009 3:38

    You have the burden of proof to prove your point. To continue arguing with you is to give my sanction that you anarchists make sense.

    • Jay Lakner permalink
      December 10, 2009 3:38

      I’ll let you mull over it. I’m curious as to how, if at all, you try to deal with the problem that your philosophy does not distinguish between the tangible and the intangible.
      Maybe there is no distinction?
      Maybe there is a distinction but it’s irrelevent?
      Maybe there is a distinction and it is relevent?
      I’ll leave it to you to come up with your own solution. 🙂

  3. December 10, 2009 3:38

    Have to agree with Jay. There seems to be a failure of the law of identity, as value is not properly defined by Vincent, and thus all of the premises he derives from that mistake are also flawed.

    The same thing happened on the last blog post with another commenter. They reasoned from false premises, and ultimately arrived at incorrect conclusions.

    Vincent, given that your error on value has been shown, how does that effect the reasoning you have derived from it?

    Also, my comment from yesterday went unanswered. I’m specifically interested to know if Rand had looted Aristotle, and if you were looting Rand, since neither of you have permission to use the ideas of the other party, and at least in Rand’s case, much of her ideas are still protected under intellectual monopoly.

    Thanks for your time.

  4. December 10, 2009 3:38

    I missed the latest comments.

    Vincent, you haven’t shown where the negative is. I inquired about this yesterday but you did not respond.

    I’d be curious to know what the negative is that you claim Kinsella’s position entails.

    Also, I would like to point out that Ancap is not anarcho-socialism, and is completely opposed to those ideas on the philosophical level. To continue to conflate ancap with communism is like conflating objectivism with communism.

    And lastly, Galt’s Gulch was an ancap compatible social system. All property was private, all relationships were voluntary, and there were no monopolies, political or otherwise.

  5. December 10, 2009 3:38

    Reading again, I see where you have made the mistake on the Law of Identity. You do not understand the differences between Ancap and say Anarcho-Syndicalism or Anarcho-Communism.

    In this case, you wrote

    “That man has the right to his life, property, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Ancap agrees with all of that.

    You also wrote,

    “It is the nature of man to live in an orderly society.”

    This implies that you think that anarchism lacks order. But that was addressed to another commenter yesterday by Stephan. Order comes before government, not after. So government is not necessary for order, and I highly recommend you read John Hasnas excellent essay, “The Myth of the Rule of Law”. It will address the idea that law can be objective.

  6. immortal_bastiat permalink
    December 14, 2009 3:38

    You possess the unique talent of writing a long article with against something without presenting a single argument. All you Randroids ever do is regurgitate the ideas of Ayn Rand and sneer other people in a dickish and arrogant manner. This is why the Objectivist movement is dying and I am very much happy of that. Why don’t you read Atty. Kinsella’s book? It is free online in

    • December 14, 2009 3:38

      Yeah, that’s why is now full of shit and contradictions… Were you not reading the news lately? Donations to ARI increased this year. Ayn Rand continues to influence millions of people while plagiarist Rothbard is simply known for writing a dishonest autobiography. People at have long divorced themselves from reason. People only came to know the Mises circle (I admire Mises and his teachings and I’m sorry for the movement he started) and anarcho-capitalism because of Ayn Rand. The people in Mises circle whom you admire, kid, are not simply plagiarists, they’re also dishonest ingrate…

      • immortal_bastiat permalink
        December 15, 2009 3:38

        That’s a lie. The Mises Institute provides the scientific validation for libertarian economics and philosophy whereas your “goddess” Ayn Rand only became famous because more people are attracted to fiction books. Ayn Rand only produced the ‘aesthetic’ or ‘literary’ validation of libertarianism. She is only a popularizer with no original thought. It is no wonder that nobody listens to you Randroids. Your so dumb you get your ideas from a fiction novel. haha!!!

  7. December 15, 2009 3:38

    Wow! That’s wishful thinking… You’re really a member of the Rothbardian cult… You enemies of reason cannot even give a conclusive definition of anarcho-capitalism. Even Roy Childs who offered a justification for anarcho-capitalism and disparaged Ayn Rand recanted his position. He said he was mistaken. Don’t you ever know that, kid? Anarchism is a pitiful ideological crossroad where you agree with the Left, the hippies, the compromisers, and the terrorists. You cannot claim to defend capitalism if your evil ideology (or do you even believe in absolute ideas?) seeks to divorce it from reason. The anarcho-capitalists only need to be ignored as if they don’t exist at all like the evil floating abstraction which they seek to establish. It’s no surprise most of you are Kantians and modern propagators of logical positivism, subjectivism, and relativism.

    • immortal_bastiat permalink
      December 15, 2009 3:38

      I ask you then, where is the argument? Mr. Childs did in fact became disillusioned with anarchism but there was no argument. Zero. He could not articulate it and it is held that his defection was a matter of personal bias that came with his belief in the political process. How am I supposed to believe in your minarchism if I see no real argument against AnCap? You are just showing that your emotional tie with Objectivism blinds you to reason by desperately sticking with the Childs issue.

      • December 15, 2009 3:38

        “Mr. Childs did in fact became disillusioned with anarchism but there was no argument.”

        Wow! I couldn’t believe that’s how disillusioned and irrational you are, guys! How low you will go to defend an evil floating abstraction which only exists in the minds of some irrational Libertarians? And yet you appropriate and banner Roy Childs’ ideas despite the fact that he had recanted his arguments against Rand and minarchism. Just because Childs repudiated his arguments for anarcho-capitalism he’s now disillusioned. Did the people at release an official statement on that? I’d like to know. Or that accusation only exists in your mind? Don’t be too emotional in trying to smear the reputation of Childs who is already long dead… And don’t ever use his ideas because he had recanted them before he died.

  8. December 17, 2009 3:38

    TO ALL:

    Anarcho-capitalists are banned from commenting on this tread. I do not want to sanction an absurd collectivist group claiming to be the vanguard of capitalism and of reason. I do not recognize their evil ideology. I believe that this Kantian collectivist group does not make sense at all and that their aim is the distortion of reason and the destruction of capitalism and individual rights.

  9. February 13, 2021 3:38

    Stephan, a good friend of mine, Alex R. Knight III, also made the communism argument in a back and forth we had (he’s not an objectivist, but he is a fiction author):

    It’s totally nonsensical, and would prove way to much, the total obliteration of all market activity as any “idea” someone has would have to be investigated and licensed before ever being used, even the idea of opening a competing, say, salon. Someone owns “manicure” and “pedicure” and “haircut”… somewhere.


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